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Episode 6: D and Susie

 

[Beth 00.00.02]: Hello everyone. You're listening to the queer oral history podcast based in Washington, DC. Welcome to Rainbow District. 

 

[Upbeat jazzy piano with electric guitar]

 

[Music gets quieter]

 

[00.00.27]: Today's activists are D and Susie. D and Susie have been together for 17 years, married for ten, and organizers for the DC Dyke March for six. The Dyke March is a grassroots march for queer liberation designed to center people in the queer community who are excluded from or unrepresented in mainstream queer spaces. And unlike typical Pride parades, at the Dyke March, there are no permits, corporate sponsors, or cops.

 

[00.00.58]: The first-ever Dyke March was on April 24th, 1993, in Washington, DC. The main organizing force behind the march was a group called the Lesbian Avengers, a direct-action group founded in New York City in 1992. They took care of the logistics, found marshals, created a manifesto about the necessity of grassroots lesbian organizing, and handed out 8,000 flyers telling people to meet at Dupont Circle at 5 pm for a march to the White House.

 

[00.01.30]: The evening of the march, 20,000 self-identifying Dykes attended. Because of its success, that June, Dyke Marches were organized in New York City, San Francisco, and Atlanta. There are many cities throughout the country now that have annual Dyke Marches, as well as many countries, including Germany, Mexico and the UK. Although DC was home of the original Dyke March, it ended up fizzling out after the one in 2007, and wasn't brought back again until 2019. That's when D and Susie got involved.

 

[00.02.02]: For my interview with D and Susie, I met them at their apartment in DC. As an organizer for the DC Dyke March myself, I've become really close with them, and I'm really excited to do interviews with them individually and get their full oral histories. But that takes a lot of time and emotional energy on their part, so we decided to start by just having a conversation about their experiences as Dyke March organizers. So we hung out with their cat, ordered some tacos, and sat down on the couch to start recording. I had a lovely time talking to Dave and Susie, and I hope you enjoy it as well. 

 

[Music fades out]

 

[00.02.39]: September 16th, 2024. Alright, hello. Welcome. To start off, would you like to introduce yourselves?

 

[Susie 00.02.46]: I'm Susie. Pronouns she/her.

 

[D 00.02.50]: And I’m D. I don’t actually use pronouns, just D. 

 

[Beth 00.02.55]: Okay, so we all met my being organizers for the DC Dyke March. What was your experience like at the Dyke March before you were organizers?

 

[Susie 00.03.04]: I didn't have any experience attending the Dyke March, really. We got involved in 2019 when they brought it back. But I think D definitely did.

 

[D 00.03.16]: Well, sort of. It went dark for many years. In 2019, it came back when we started organizing with those folks about a few months into them creating it and starting the whole thing. There were sort of core organizers that had the base idea and motivation to do it. We got involved a little bit later. But I am actually from here. I was born here in Washington, DC, and I attended some of the early Dyke Marches, particularly in the late 90s and early 2000s when I was graduating high school and in college. 

 

[00.03.54]: Every year we–it was just part of Pride, you know, it was funny. It became something that you just, you definitely went to. And it's not like now where we document everything. DCDM has photographers who are doing these amazing projects and all kinds of stuff. Back then, you just didn't really have many cameras, and so it's hard to even find some of that archival footage and stuff. And so it was really cool to have been there then and to get to see it now. 

 

[Beth 00.04.22]: Yeah, what was it like then compared to now?

 

[D 00.04.25]: You know, in a lot of ways similar. I was very young and so I didn't have the same–I didn't access it in the same way. I was there definitely as a participant, but not as a producer of any kind. And, yeah, so for me, it was really–when I was a kid, it was really a party. It was a cruising experience. That was really heavy back then. In some ways, cruising, it's like "now or never" is the concept behind that. And we needed it in those times. We didn't have as many spaces to meet, particularly those of us who were under 21 years old, and so we would come together and there were All. These. Dykes. And you just had this incredible thing. There was no Dyke Night, there was no Dewdrop, there was no As You Are, these amazing spaces that we have now here in the city.

 

[Beth 00.05.18]: Which are queer bars. 

 

[D 00.05.20]: Yeah, the queer bars. We had them, there was the Phase. There was, um–

 

[Susie 00.05.23]: But not for people who are under 21. 

 

[D 00.05.24]: Yeah.

 

[Susie 00.05.25]: Yeah.

 

[D 00.05.26]: Yeah. And so Dyke March was a very cruise-heavy space, and I definitely met cuties. Yeah, a little bit of a different vibe. Now, I feel like when we come together it is much more intentional, for purpose, for community, for making our voices be heard. And that was definitely a big part of it then. Again, we come to things from our own lenses, right? But there were amazing voices and people that were really important in our history who are gone now. So, yeah. Amazing. It was great. It was always great.

 

[Beth 00.06.02]: So in 2019, organizers brought the Dyke March back to DC after 12 years. When did you two get involved?

 

[D 00.06.11]: Yeah, we got involved I'd say four or five months after they started. We actually met somebody at a drag brunch who told us about Dyke Fest, the first Dyke Fest. And that was happening at this sort of underground spot in Northeast. And we showed up, very little knowledge of what was really happening. Like, we're like, we think this thing is going to be here? This is sort of kind of random stuff. No address to this place. And you get there and there's big chalk arrows drawn on the sidewalk to be like, Dyke Fest this way and like, follow the sounds to the lesbians. And then, there we were. And that was it. We met probably 40 people that day who are still our friends. 

 

[Susie 00.06.57]: Yeah. 

 

[Beth 00.06.58]: What was the organizing process like then compared to now?

 

[D 00.07.02]: So, it was pre-pandemic. It was pre-COVID. And so everybody met in person all the time. And that was really cool. And a lot of ways it was really hard for us because we had to get into the city and get to the libraries at 6:30 at night or whatever, but it was cool because we really got to know everybody. And then afterwards we'd spend social time either getting drinks or food or whatever.

 

[Susie 00.07.24]: And it really built a community. 

 

[D 00.07.27]: Mhm. 

 

[Susie 00.07.29]: Organically and beautifully.

 

[D 00.07.32]: Yeah. And they were trying to find their way as far as organizing goes and I think tried out some different strategies, and so it was a little bit different. I think now there's sort of a structure, like, it's been done and people have left some really great pathways. I feel like now it's a whole lot easier than it was on those 2019 folks. 

 

[Susie 00.07.56]: Mhm.

 

[D 00.07.57]: Because they were kind of making it up.

 

[Susie 00.07.59]: Yeah. They started kind of from scratch.

 

[D 00.08.01]: Yeah. 

 

[Beth 00.08.03]: What were you feeling like emotionally during this time, when you would all come together?  

 

[D 00.08.09]: I was really grateful for the community and the space to be able to do something that mattered. 

 

[Susie 00.08.13]: Mhm.

 

[D 00.08.14]: I really have a lot of gratitude towards all the people who have been a part of this and I think that it's something that people come and they bring what they can and you spend your capacity and then you have to kind of pass the torch because it just–you can only do it for–you get tired, and so it's really cool to see all the ways people grow and add to it and have–

 

[Susie 00.08.40]: For sure.

 

[D 00.08.41]: Over time.

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[Beth 00.08.43]: Can you talk about this year's theme for the march, Dykes Against Genocide?

 

[D 00.08.49]: Sure. I mean, unfortunately, we live in a world where the broad theme, Dykes Against Genocide has to be applied, and it can't even be Dykes against this specific genocide because there are like, five happening in the world. And we have this, I don't know, this weird cultural disassociation happening where that is somehow a political concept. The idea of being against genocide should be a no brainer. So I thought it was really important, and I think the other folks in the organizing committee really felt it was important to say that we see this happening in the world and that it's taking over in some places. It's insidious right now. It's so hard to even think about trying to stop it, but that we at least say that we see it and we know it and we don't stand for it. It was kind of scary to pick that theme this year because we knew it would draw more attention. 

 

[Susie 00.09.47]: And it did.

 

[D 00.09.50]: Yep. We had a few things that we had to respond to. And then, of course, the police presence was pretty heavy this year. I'm really glad it came off without incident, though. I feel like the day itself was just beautiful, and having a lot of people who really were connected to various genocides happening, and I just felt like it really struck the right chord and tone this year.

 

[Susie 00.10.18]: And we're able to, I mean, I think what Dyke March does well is raise money and is able to donate that out, at least in some ways, trying to move the dial.

 

[D 00.10.33]: We try to choose things that are really relevant. Last year we did, it was Dykes for Trans Rights and that was a time we had over 300 bills, anti-trans bills on the floor, various floors and so on, and it, yeah, it's a great way for us to actually use our voices and collect money. You're absolutely right about that. That's probably one of the most significant things we do, is money goes to organizations and places that are doing the work. 

 

[Susie 00.11.02]: Mhm.

 

[Beth 00.11.03]: Yeah. And when we were discussing what the theme should be in the meeting, it was unanimous. We all thought it should be Dykes Against Genocide.

 

[Susie 00.11.14]: And then most of the Dyke marches around the country did the exact–had the same theme. 

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[D 00.11.20]: I mean how did you choose anything else– 

 

[Susie 00.11.21]: Right. 

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[D 00.22]: This year?

 

[Susie 00.11.23]: You can't. 

 

[D 00.11.24]: Yeah. It was. It IS.

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[Susie 00.11.26]: It is.

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[D 00.11.27]: Unbelievable.

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[Pause]

 

[Beth 00.11.29]: There isn't one definition of what the word “Dyke” means. What does it mean to you?

 

[Susie 00.11.36]: I think that “Dyke” is taking back a word that's sort of been used against us. And I think it's a more radical–not more radical. It's more encompassing than just, like, a lesbian.

 

[Beth 00.11.54]: Yeah, I think it's more radical and more encompassing.

 

[D 00.11.57]: Yeah. I mean, I agree with that completely. And I would add that it is a word that is inherently political. To be a Dyke means you are subversive. You are pushing back on a system, and I agree that the word “lesbian” tells us, is an identifier about what your preferences are or whatever. “Dyke” is about who you are, stomping around in boots, being somebody who pushes back and doesn't allow the patriarchy to completely control your life. “Dyke” is a word of power to me. And it also is reminiscent of the women who were the nurses and the caregivers during the AIDS crisis in the 80s who were just unafraid, and were these Dykes who came in and helped these gay men transition as they were passing out of the world in the 80s. And I don't know if you know the history of LGBT, but that is why they put the “L” at the beginning, is to honor the lesbians who cared for the gay men in the 80s. And so to me, that word has that history wrapped up in it. It's the story of Stonewall. It's Marsha and Sylvia and people that may not have been considered "lesbians," but were fucking Dykes.

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[Susie 00.13.21]: But were fucking Dykes. 

 

[D 00.13.22]: Even if they didn't identify with it then, I think you listen to their interviews, and especially Sylvia, and you listen to what she has to say and like, that's us. 

 

[Susie 00.13.33]: Yeah. Fighting for the same things. 

 

[D 00.13.36]: Absolutely. Saying the same things. Telling the gays of Fire Island, “You are going to be ashamed of yourselves. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves.” And, yeah.

 

[Beth 00.13.45]: I feel like it’s abolitionist, and queer people, basically living in that reality.

 

[Susie 00.13.51]: Where those intersect. 

 

[Beth 00.13.52]: Yeah.

 

[D 00.13.53]: And that was the gays of Fire Island back then, to clarify.

 

[Beth 00.13.56]: Okay.

 

[D 00.13.57]: The gays of Fire Island today, it's, eh, [Susie laughs] it's not great, but it's not the same. I'm talking about the white, cis white gay men of the 70s and 80s who did not help during the AIDS, who did not help their trans women and people of color and who turned their backs on us. Not the people today who are just partying and having a good time.

 

[Beth 00.14.20]: Why do you think that the Dyke March is important?

 

[D 00.14.23]: Well, at risk of giving the same answer...

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[Susie 00.14.25]: Right.

 

[Susie laughs]

 

[D 00.14.26]: Right. The way we bring attention to an important cause. We bring community together. We stand in solidarity with one another. We raise money for something that matters. And we grow communities. So many people come to us and say, how do I get involved next year? I love this, I want to be part of this. 

 

[Susie 00.14.45]: Mhm. Well, and the march itself has just such energy to it. It’s really something to be around that many queer people who all identify in the same way.

 

[D 00.14.57]: And that much queer joy.

 

[Susie 00.14.58]: Oh, yeah. 

 

[D 00.15.00]: Love that there's a dance party at the end, and it's just, we have a great time.

 

[Beth 00.15.05]: Could you describe what being at Dyke March is like for you?

 

[Susie 00.15.09]: I mean, it's a real, um, vibe. [Susie laughs] But really, I mean, there's an energy there that I've only experienced in the Dyke March..

 

[D 00.15.24]: Yeah. For me it's a very, there are huge energetic shifts as the day goes on. There's a lot of nervousness, trepidation, stage fright at the beginning, not quite sure if everything is going to go as planned, and then the sort of release of it and then the joy of marching and being in the place, and then the huge joy of knowing we did it safely, we got everybody there and it's done. So I start very wound up and I end up just– 

 

[Susie 00.15.59]: It is. It's like a crescendo. [All laugh]

 

[D 00.16.02]: Yeah, yeah. It's a lot of energy.

 

[Susie 00.16.04]: Mhm. 

 

[D 00.16.05]: Yeah. But it's so fun and the end is always so beautiful. You're surrounded with just so much joy. And I really enjoyed that we had so many great chants this year, and we had some powerful music that was connected and then other music that was party-ful and joyful, and it was a real blend, I think, of both honoring the subject matter and showing our queer joyful resistance.

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[Susie 00.16.34]: Mhm. Because queer joy is resistance. 

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[Beth 00.16.37]: And what do you mean by that? [Beth laughs] I mean, I know what you mean, but. [Beth laughs] For the listeners, I did just receive a glare from Susie.

 

[All laugh]

 

[D 00.16.47]: Come on, you said it, you have to say it now.

 

[Susie 00.16.50]: Well, I think that when we show joy, it shows them that they can only do so much to push us down, because they do a lot to push us down, those who are “they.” And we find joy anyway, in our resistance. 

 

[Beth 00.17.09]: And D, what does it mean to you?

 

[D 00.17.11]: For sure, that's true. There's also the history of it. So, Stonewall was– everybody likes to say "Stonewall was a riot." Stonewall was a party. Stonewall was three days of Rockette lines and doing kicks in the air and dancing and having a great time and pushing the cops, literally, physically away from the bar. And so, yes, it was a riot in the sense of it was a pushback against the police, and there was absolutely things that were thrown, and there was an initial sort of violent moment, but the biggest history of Stonewall was it was a three day party in the streets where they pushed the cops away. And that's where we get the concept of Pride. And they came back to Christopher Street every year and threw that same party until it became this bigger Pride event. And so queer joy is resistance is so embedded in our history in that way. The events at Pride now have become so tied to capitalist stuff. It's all these companies and whatever. But Pride is about people seeing us in our joyful state, and having a blast and doing what we do, which is care for each other and party and have a good time.

 

[Susie 00.18.22]: Even though. 

 

[D 00.18.23]: Yeah. And Pride is accessible for straight people and questioning people. Anybody can come to Pride and not feel like they're not welcome. And I think that's really cool because I don't feel like–come to Pride. You're not taking up too much space by standing on the sidewalk and being at a parade, you know? So I've always thought that was a really cool way to do it. And then, we have queer joy as resistance in other ways, too. Like, we're poly, and kinky. Not us necessarily, but like, the world is very accepting of poly, kinky. There's a subversiveness even in the way that we have sex, because it's outlawed. And so, I mean, what's more joyful than that, right? [Susie laughs] That when you're having amazing sex as a queer person, you are resisting even in that moment, just existing.

 

[Beth 00.19.15]: Yeah. Could you say more about Stonewall being more of a party than a riot?

 

[D 00.19.19]: So, it went on for like three days, and everybody came from all over New York, and they helped keep it going. And so it was essentially, continually occupied for like, 72 hours with gays saying, oh, hell no, this is our place. [Susie laughs]

 

[Susie 00.19.34]: Yeah. And trans women of color. 

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[D 00.19.36]: Mhm. 

 

[Beth 00.19.39] Alright, well, those are all my questions. Is there anything else I haven't asked you about that you feel like sharing?

 

[D 00.19.45]: Um...

 

[Susie 00.19.47]: Get involved in Dyke March, kids. 

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[D 00.19.48]: Yeah. [Susie laughs] That’s what I was thinking, is if we can leave them with a call to action. 

 

[Susie 00.19.54]: Mhm.

 

[D 00. 19.55]: Join us, whoever you are. Especially anybody who resonates with that term and that concept. We need all the help we can get. And the bigger we are, the more ideas, the better it is. 

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[Susie 00.20.07]: Yeah, the more we do.

 

[D 00.20.09]: Yeah.

 

[Susie 00.20.10]: The more we can do. 

 

[Upbeat jazzy piano with electric guitar]

 

[Music gets quieter]

 

[Beth 00.20.23]: As D and Susie talked about, the theme for the DC Dyke March this year was Dykes Against Genocide. The funds raised from the march were donated to three organizations: the Sudan Solidarity Collective, providing financial assistance and creating solidarity spaces for people in the Sudanese diaspora; Operation Olive Branch, supporting and amplifying aid requests of Palestinian families; and Omna Tigray, advocating for the human rights and economic development of people in Tigray, Ethiopia. Click on the links in the description of this episode if you want to donate to them as well. 

 

[00.21.03]: Sometimes people ask who exactly is the Dyke March for? Am I allowed to go to the Dyke March? My perspective is, if you're drawn to the Dyke March, you belong there. Like D and Susie said, we need all the help we can get. I'm excited to keep organizing with them, and I'm really grateful that they're part of my chosen family. 

 

[Music fades out]

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[Beth 00.21.31]: There is not a singular definition of being a Dyke, but what does it mean to you, for you, for–[laughing] Sorry. 

 

[All crack up] 

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[D laughs and claps twice slowly]

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[All continue to laugh]

 

[Beth 00.21.47]: Yeah. 

 

[D 00.21.48]: I hope some of these giggles make it into the podcast.

 

[All laugh]

 

[Beth 00.21.56]: Alright, this is a test. Can you say something?

 

[D 00.21.58]: Something.

 

[Susie 00.21.59]: Testing.

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[D 00.22.00]: Um...

 

[D laughs]

 

[Beth 00.22.01]: What's your favorite color? And why? 

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[Pause]

 

[D 00.22.06]: "Why?" What a funny question on color. Um–

 

[Beth 00.22.08]: Okay, that’s enough. 

 

[D 00.22.09]: Is that enough? 

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[All crack up]

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[Susie 00.22.14]: Um...

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[Beth 00.22.15]: What's your favorite color and why?

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[Susie 00.22.17]: [with attitude] Um, pink. Because it's pretty. 

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[Beth 00.22.20]: Okay perfect, let's...

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[D snort-laughs]

 

[Dialogue fades out]

 

[Upbeat jazzy electric guitar]

 

[Music gets quieter]

[Beth 00.22.24]: If you want to be notified when new episodes of Rainbow District come out, click on the link in the description and join the mailing list. Go to rainbowdistrictpodcast.com to learn more about queer history and find community resources. Alright, bye for now!

 

[Music ends]

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