Episode 4: Dr. Rob and Big Gay Smiles

 

[Beth 00.00.00]: Hello everyone. You're listening to the queer Oral history podcast based in Washington, DC. Welcome to Rainbow District.

 

[Upbeat jazzy piano with electric guitar]

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[Music gets quieter]

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[00.00.26]: Today’s activist is Dr. Robert McKernan. Dr. Rob is a dentist at Big Gay Smiles, a dental practice he started and now runs with his husband, Tyler. Like a lot of people, I have always absolutely hated going to the dentist. But I kid you not, I genuinely look forward to going now because I'm a client at Big Gay Smiles myself, and Dr. Rob and Tyler are so kind and fun to hang out with, and they provide top notch care. They also donate 10% of their yearly revenue to local and national HIV/AIDS nonprofits.

 

[0.01.06]: For my interview with Dr. Rob, I met him at the Big Gay Smiles office at Washington Circle. It was an unusually warm day for February, one of the first signs of spring. Tyler couldn't make it, so it was just Dr. Rob and me, and we each took a seat behind the counter. I had a lovely time talking to Dr. Rob and I hope you enjoy it as well. 

 

[Music fades out]

 

[Beth 0.01.30]: February 9th, 2024. Alright, well, thank you so much for being here.

 

[Rob 00.01.36]: You're very welcome. It's a pleasure to have you here in the office and to talk a little bit about Big Gay Smiles and our mission as well as a little bit about the journey.

 

[Beth 00.01.48]: Alright, so to start off, would you like to introduce yourself?

 

[Rob 00.01.51]: Sure. My name is Doctor Robert McKernan. I am a general dentist in Washington, DC. I own and operate Big Gay Smiles along with my husband. It is a queer-centered and owned business that's mission is to find a cure for HIV by helping people smile. I was born and raised in Phoenix, Arizona. I came from a predominantly Mormon family and we have deep heritage, deep roots in that. And so to have a transition into the queer world was quite an exciting time for me, as well as trying as well.

 

[Beth 00.02.30]: Yeah. Well, we're gonna get into that. What was your community like generally growing up?

 

[Rob 00.02.36]: Well, it was pretty conservative. I remember that there were a lot of anti-gay and trans laws growing up that were passed, as well as Arizona was one of the states to ban gay marriage. And my church group came out and had instructions from their leadership to fight and work against it and asked for donations to fight against gay marriage. And so my earliest memories, and introduction to the queer world, was one in a hostile environment. And it really, unfortunately, made me feel as though I didn't have a room in my community. I felt as though I was unwanted and unloved. As well as, you know, being gay was deemed as, like, a sin in that, in that world, in that culture.

 

[Beth 00.03.19]: When did you first start to question your sexuality or your gender identity or both?

 

[Rob 00.03.26]: Yeah. So, you know, being gay when you're young and little, there is a lot of queer questioning that's involved. Sometimes it's gender identity, sometimes it's just sexuality. Certainly there were times when you think, man, it would have been easier if I was born a woman so I could have a, you know, a heterosexual or heteronormative sexual experience, but I would say I was never really a gender identity questioning, I was mainly sexuality questioning. And so, you know, for any young gay boy, it's usually in the aisles of Target, Walmart looking at the underwear aisle, being like, whoa, I feel different in here. What's going on? And you don't quite know until you're older, what's going on, and when you start entering into puberty,

 

[Beth 00.04.16]: When do you think you felt like you knew that you were gay?

 

[Rob 00.04.20]: Well, I didn't really put a label on it, or think that I was gay, well until I was a Mormon missionary in the Dominican Republic. Prior to that, you kind of sweep sexuality as a Mormon under the rug. You feel like you don't talk about it. You don't date. You're not supposed to worry about marriage and having a family until after you've done your clergy mission, which is a two year commitment to Jesus as well as the Mormon Church, to go and try to bring the Mormon gospel to other people that haven't heard it. And so really, I didn't concern myself too much about my sexuality in my teenage years. It wasn't until I was a Mormon missionary getting close to the end of it that I thought, oh crap, I have to marry a woman and I have to have kids. And that scared the hell out of me because I was not the least interested in the process of how children have to be made.

 

[Beth 00.05.20]: That's when you're about 18, right?

 

[Rob 00.05.24]: Yeah. So it's 18 now. At the time it was 19 for men and 21 for women. They didn't let women do their Mormon missions at the same age as men. And we can talk a little bit more about that some other time. But being a woman in the Mormon Church is very difficult if you are trying to be independent and a free thinker. So, being gay is its own experience. And there's a lot of inequality, you know, for a gay man, but it is not nearly as difficult as it is for women in the Church who are seeking a reprieve. 

 

[Beth 00.06.04]: So after your mission, was that when you went to college?

 

[Rob 00.06.08]: Well, I did a year in a very rural town in Idaho called Brigham Young University, Idaho. It is in Rexburg, just outside Yellowstone. It is even more rigid than Utah, even more conservative than Utah. And you weren't allowed to wear shorts. You had to wear closed-toed shoes on campus, you weren't allowed to have any kind of facial hair, and let alone, you know, be gay. There were zero out and open homosexual students on that campus at that time. And there were plenty of closeted ones, but there was no one that was free to explore their sexuality and still currently, at BYU-Idaho, without, unfortunately, experiencing consequences or expulsion.

 

[Beth 00.06.59]: Did you know anyone there who was openly gay?

 

[Rob 00.07.02]: No, not at BYU. Idaho. Not a single soul. When I came back from my Mormon mission, I started entering into queerdom and the experience of what it is to be queer as well as sexual exploration. That's when I really found out and discovered this kind of underground community of queer Mormon gays and what it meant to be queer, Mormon, and gay, as well as the struggles and hardship that follow. It was funny because a lot of my friends that I made at BYU Idaho, I found out after I had moved down to Utah, after I did my Mormon mission that, oh, these people were gay and I could have been friends with them sooner and shared in the grief that we were feeling at the time had I entered into that community, the queer community, sooner. And it's a shame because you really do live a double life when you're gay and Mormon. You're worried about being discovered. And when you are open, you are constantly attacked.

 

[Beth 00.08.08]: Attacked physically? Emotionally?

 

[Rob 00.08.11]: It can be both. It's an emotional burden as well as there have been many, many stories and documentations of violence. In fact, Brigham Young University used to practice what's called electroshock therapy for conversion therapy, trying to avert homosexuals to be heterosexual. And so they would hook up gay men in the 80s and 90s to electroshock chairs and shock them while displaying softcore pornography of homosexuals, to try to train them, like Pavlov did with the dog and the salivation, to be heteronormative. And it didn't work, and it killed a lot of my colleagues and peers. And gratefully, they don't–thankfully, they don't do that anymore, but they still do different forms of conversion or aversion therapy through a referral network. And one of the ones that I experienced was called Northstar.

 

[Beth 00.09.12]: Was that in Utah?

 

[Rob 00.09.14]: That was in Utah. Yeah, that's in, right out in the Happy Valley County in Utah, just outside of BYU. So, but I think your question was related to if there were other people that were open and gay at BYU and I would say not open, but there was quite an underground community, and you knew each other and you knew how to protect each other, and then those that were found out and discovered, you had to be very quick to protect yourself, and you had to pretty much disown that you had any relationship or friendship with them, so you wouldn't lose your college credits and you wouldn't get expelled, in case they had told you that they had sexual relations with those gentlemen.

 

[Beth 00.09.58]: How did you find the underground community? What was that like?

 

[Rob 00.10.02]: Well, it's funny you ask how. It was Grindr. Grindr saved my life. It really did. And I say that because it's funny. People think, oh, it's a hookup app. It's just a bunch of gays, you know, sleeping with each other. Well, the very first message I got on Grindr was from a gay swim coach who coached a gay team called a Queer United Aquatic Club in Salt Lake City. And the very first message I got on Grindr was from him saying, hey, are you a student at BYU? I was like, yes. I was totally anonymous. Blank profile. He said, well, you should come up and you should swim with a QUAC, you know? And I was a swimmer and I thought, oh, okay. And so I talked to him a little bit, and the next week I ended up going to swim for the team. I didn't say a word to anyone. I just swam and then left and thought, okay, these are normal people. They're not deviants. No one molested me. I wasn't harassed, and I just left that first day and went back the next week and they invited me to lunch afterwards. And then that's kind of was my soft introduction to the queer world was through a gay swim team, that was just so nurturing, so wonderful. 

 

[00.11.17]:That second time I went, I met a doctor who was transgender. She was a– she is a– geologist. She had several, multiple publications, precious stones named after her. And it really blew my mind because the narrative in the Mormon Church is if you're gay or if you're queer, you will be unhappy and you will be unsuccessful in your life. And here I was, I was meeting lesbian gynecologists. I was meeting transgender doctors of geology and geothermal studies and just crazy accomplished individuals. And I thought, wait a second, you know, I can be successful, I can be happy, and I can be queer? So that was very eye opening to see that. And I had downloaded Grindr because I had confessed to my bishop about pornography sins. And so they put a child block on my phone so I could not look at pornography. And so I was young, it was at a time in my period where, you're horny as a teenager and as an early 20 adult male. And that made me search on my app phone, apps. And that's how I found Grindr, because I had never heard of Grindr before in my life until I was trying to to get on my phone and find some kind of release for my sexuality.

 

[Beth 00.12.46]: So you became pretty close with the people on that team?

 

[Rob 00.12.50]: Oh, yes. Yeah. I've become very, very close to those teammates. And I call them quite often. I'm friends with them. I owe my healthy transition to the queer community to them. And I am just so thankful that there are organizations and people committed to helping people in a non-judgmental way. Because I was a tender believing Mormon at that time, and I thought that my nature was a sin and evil and something to be ashamed of, and they understood the context around that, and they gave me time and space to let me come to realize that that wasn't the case on my own terms. Whereas so often you just want to shake someone and be like, understand. Understand that there are other options and other alternatives and they just really aren't ready to hear some of those things.

 

[Beth 00.13.42]: I know that was a long time ago, but do you remember how you felt after that first lunch?

 

[Rob 00.13.47]: Yeah. I was shocked. It definitely was disbelief because the narrative was, oh, gays are drug addicts. If you are gay, you'll get HIV and you'll die. And it's a punishment from God. And here I met all these normal people that were wonderful, including someone who was open about their HIV diagnosis. They were HIV positive, undetectable. And I realized– and I asked them and he's like, no, I've been living with HIV for 20 years and it means nothing. And I have a perfectly healthy life. And I'm in a committed relationship that I'm happy. And I thought, wow. So not only is HIV not a death sentence like I was raised to believe, but you can have a happy and successful life even if you do have it. It just shook me to my core. It helped me begin to question my faith and my upbringing.

 

[Beth 00.14.44]: Yeah, that sounds really shocking, and powerful. When did you come out as gay more publicly?

 

[Rob 00.14.51]: Yeah, so, it wasn't until my senior year, when I had gotten into dental school, that I came out as gay to my family. And I had also come out to some church leadership my last semester because I'd already gotten accepted into dental school. And if you get expelled from undergraduate, you're not able to qualify for higher learning, because one of the things they ask you when you go to grad school or medical school or doctor school is have you ever violated in the academic policy or a student honor code? And if you get expelled from violating a student honor code, having gay sex or being in a homosexual relationship, you would have to mark yes on that form. And obviously there's a space that lets you describe what the circumstances were, but that would preclude a lot of schools to not give you the the time of day to review the application if you had a violated honor code, student honor code policy. So I was a senior I did in my last semester. It was a very painful experience in terms of my personal relationships with my family members. Some were good, some were–most were bad. And I got closure I needed from Utah. And I was able to make a shift and transition to my doctoral training in New York, in Westchester in New York.

 

[Beth 00.16.18]: Oh, so you went to grad school in New York?

 

[Rob 00.16.20]: I did, yes, I did my dental school, and I got my doctorate at Touro in New York, in Westchester. So it was a huge change from being from BYU, from Provo. And I still remember to this day the first person who didn't know me personally, who wasn't a friend or a family member, telling them that I was gay because I had never told anyone, oh, by the way, I'm gay. I'd never had done that. It was always, you know, you sit down, I have something important to tell you. “I suffer from same-sex attraction,” is what the vocabulary was at the time. And I think it still is today in the Mormon Church. They view it as a suffering or an ailment. And so you say, I suffer from same-sex attraction, and it gets quiet. They go, oh well, how long? What have you done? What haven't you done? Are you still pure?

 

[00.17.13]: And so you go through that every time when you're coming out as a Mormon. There are a lot of questions around that. And that's kind of how they gauge whether or not they want to continue interacting with you, if you are what they identify as “pursuing an alternative lifestyle.” Which isn't, doesn't that sound terrible? Pursuing an alternative lifestyle. That just sounds–it's a life. All lives are equal. It is your life. And you have one life. And it's not an alternative life. Because when you say alternative, it implies that you're not doing what they think you should be doing.

 

[Beth 00.17.50]: Yeah. Could you say more about that person you told kind of offhandedly?

 

[Rob 00.17.56]: Yeah, it was a classmate. I went to the opening happy hour. It was the first happy hour I'd ever gone to. It was a mixer, a dental student mixer. And I go, and I'm the first one there. I'm chatting with some classmates, and one of my classmates, asked me–her name was Jillian Grant, just sweet as can be. One of the nicest girls that you can ever meet. She's a fabulous dentist in New York. Very, very talented. She was asking, oh, did you come with anyone, are you dating someone? And that question kind of like mean like hit me like, no, I'm not currently dating anyone, but I am gay. And I told her that. I said, no, I'm not dating anyone, but I am gay. And she didn't react like everyone had else reacted up until that time, that was my first time. She said, yeah, okay, that's cool. My best friend was gay in high school, or, is gay. And she goes like, yeah, you know, I was like, oh, okay, cool. And like, I thought, that's the first time. I actually had a positive experience with that.

 

[00.17.56]: And so, we're so really good friends. She's still up there in New York, and it definitely shaped the way I framed my mentality from there. Like, in New York, nobody fucking cares. Nobody cares you're gay. They just want you to get out of the way so they walk fast. That's the New York attitude. Whereas Utah, oh my God, you can't even hang a pride flag without it getting stolen or without getting notes in your mailbox about what a terrible person you are and about how you're a groomer and a creep. And it is just such a huge world of difference. And that really shaped who I am today. It helped me come out quickly and embrace myself in my doctoral training.

 

[Beth 00.19.55]: That's really powerful because she doesn't know in that moment how intense her lack of reaction is for you. 

 

[Rob 00.20.01]: No, no, she had no idea.

 

[Beth 00.20.04]: But inside for you, there's so much going on.

 

[Rob 00.20.07]: Oh, yeah. So much turmoil. And like, those first two years of school was just figuring out what the hell is going on with myself and realizing that, up until that point in my life, that was an entirely different life. And I was starting a new one. I was almost being reborn now, being baptized per se, into the queer community.

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[Beth 00.20.35]: Yeah. What inspired you to be a dentist? 

 

[Rob 00.20.39]: Well, definitely my Mormon mission. I am grateful, I have a deep respect for my heritage, albeit it is a toxic relationship with the queer community. It has one. But I was a Mormon missionary in the Dominican Republic. I had no idea what I was going to do after my Mormon mission. And the greatest point of clarity in my life came when a group of dentists in my very rural jungle location were providing dental care to the people that I lived with and served and helped out and they had asked the Mormon missionaries in that area at the time to translate for them. And so, I go, I’m thinking, yeah, okay, we're gonna, you know, translate for people to brush some frigging teeth and just deal with that. And that wasn't the case. There were people with massive infections, people that were missing teeth, people that had dental cavities that were in terrible and tremendous pain. And here are these dentists, helping them and fixing their problem immediately. 

 

[00.21.43]: And to see that, I felt like I did more good in that one week of translating for that group of dentists than I did up until that time in my mission. I felt like I was just a fraud and that there is so much more good I can be doing in the world with my hands if I had a skill that could help people like that. And so from that moment, I decided, I'm going to be a dentist. I don't care what other aspects of my life are going on. The one thing that was clear to me is I need to be a dentist. I need to be able to help other people the way that these people are being helped. And so that really shaped who I am today and has really given me a passion for helping needs-based communities.

 

[Beth 00.22.27]: So when did you have the idea to make this office, Big Gay Smiles?

 

[Rob 00.22.31]: Big Gay Smiles, I've always entertained owning my own dental office and doing dentistry on my own terms. The idea came when I was a junior in dental school. I was thinking I wanted to do a practice and I was writing down names. And just for fun drinking some, rosé with a friend who's now an orthodontist, a fabulous orthodontist in Florida. We were drinking rosé and workshopping names, and I thought, what about, like, gay smiles? Ha, ha. Like, that would be funny. Well, what about big gay smiles? And we were workshopping that, and I thought, that does have a nice ring to it.

 

[00.23.11]: Big gay smiles, like, that's a beautiful smile. Sounds nice and pretty. Sounds fun. And "gay," back in the day, used to have a very different meaning than what it does now. And so I thought, yeah, that seems like something that would be kind of fun. And I really didn't take it seriously until my senior year when I thought, I was wrestling with the whole Mormon transition. And I realized that I could do a lot of good, and I can do it using similar modalities that the Mormon Church employs to help what they identify as the "poor and needy," through their principle called tithing, where they tithe 10% of their income and they donate it with the understanding it's going towards the sick and needy. While it really does not, and they are a massive wealth hoarder.

 

[00.24.08]: And they practice heavy tax evasion, as well as on my Mormon mission, it became clear to me when there were actual poor and needy people that needed help, the church was unwilling to finance their help, and so I kind of felt bamboozled from that. But I thought, I'm going to do that with my life. I'm still going to do that 10% contribution, but towards a mission that I create and I believe it. And so that made me think, okay, well, I'll do it through dentistry, I'll do it so every dental office I have donates 10% of their gross revenue towards funding HIV research and through funding community projects. And so that kind of Mormon principle of tithing evolved into what Big Gay Smiles is now and really gave me a greater sense of purpose in my dentistry in addition to helping people.

 

[Beth 00.24.59]: That's interesting that you took the, really the core, I guess, of the Mormon, or what should be the core of it, and then applied it to your life. So did you have to leave the Church?

 

[Rob 00.25.12]: Yes, yeah. I was near expulsion through a process called excommunication, where they formally shun you, and they remove your formal membership due to your sins. And in my case, "crime against nature" is what they called it. And luckily, there was a colleague of mine on the gay swim team who said, yeah, no, you're not going to do that, sweetie, come with me. I was like, okay, like, where are we going? And we got in his car. We went to an attorney's office, and this attorney dealt with other queer Mormons that were being shunned. And that process is extremely, extremely taxing on families and individuals and the way the Church exercises a means of control over its members through fear of retaliation and the cessation of family ties.

 

[00.26.04]: And so I was speaking to this attorney, and he recommended to me, hey, no, we're going to actually send a letter. We're going to file a restraining order against this organization and a cease and desist, and you're going to withdraw your records before you undergo punitive damages that the Church is trying to force upon you. You don't need to die a martyr. You can take control of the situation and you won't get your 99-year-old grandmother a letter from the Church clergy that says, don't talk to your grandson because he's gay and fighting against the Church. I don't need that. I don't need my family members knowing my business. And they're not the ones that are that are going to dictate how and when my family members find out I'm queer and what I'm doing with my life. And so I was, I thank God every day or, the universe every day, I had such great friends in Utah that were able to help me control the narrative of my life. Yeah.

 

[Beth 00.27.05]: Yeah. That's amazing. I'm glad that you had those people. So what led you to DC? 

 

[Rob 00.27.11]: Well, that's another story. 2020 hit. That was my graduation year. I graduated in the middle of a global pandemic.

 

[Beth 00.27.20]: So did I, but from undergrad. 

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[Rob 00.27.22]: Yeah. So it was crazy, especially in healthcare because dentistry has aerosolized procedures. You drill a tooth. There's a mist of tooth debris, saliva, and water. And so that gets aerosolized. And that can contaminate certain individuals if they are not properly wearing personal protective equipment or if they're immunocompromised. And so there was a lot of unknowns around coronavirus, and we didn't know if it was safe to do dentistry. And so when we graduated, I had had a public health contract to go to Bemidji, Minnesota for student loan repayments. And they ended up rescinding that student loan repayment. But they wanted to me to go there regardless because they were trying to enforce their contract.

 

[00.28.11]: And luckily I was friends with that same retainer, or, attorney, that helped me through my transition from the Mormon faith. And he said, no, no, no, no, that's that's how that works. They can't just unilaterally not hold up their end of their contract and force you to do something. So, yeah, you don't have to  go to rural Minnesota to do dentistry just because they said you do. And so after that, I was kind of like, without a house, or like, a dental home for a little bit, and I was near graduation without that contract. And I was going in between Virginia and New York to visit my sister, who actually left the Mormon Church prior to me. She was the first black sheep of my family. But she didn't do it because she was queer. She did it because she was faith questioning.

 

[00.29.00]: And so she really had it the toughest out of all of us kids during that time, during her transition. But we became really, really good friends. I was never really close to her until that time, and it was just entertained, just stay in DC, do DC. It's great. It's queer. You'll be supported. You'll be close to me. You'll be close to family. And you can figure things out. And so that's what happened. I moved to DC. I accepted a position in ward seven and a dental office that was a Medicaid dental office serving on ward seven and ward eight. And I really just fell in love with DC, with the people, with everything about it, and I just can't imagine being anywhere else.

 

[Beth 00.29.49]: I feel the same. You work at Whitman Walker now, right, as well?

 

[Rob 00.29.55]: Yes. So I am employed full time at Whitman Walker. It's an HIV clinic that serves needs-based individuals. They also see everyone, the general population as well. They've expanded their function. But I do dentistry on predominantly individuals that are medically compromised or underserved.

 

[Beth 00.30.18]: So you do Big Gay Smiles in the evenings?

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[Rob 00.30.20]: Yes, I do Big Gay Smiles every evening with my wonderful husband, and on Saturdays, on weekends.

 

[Beth 00.30.28]: I saw on the website it says you brunch on Sundays.

 

[Rob 00.30.32]: [laughing] Yeah, Sunday's our holy day, the holy day for gays. It's for brunch. Yeah, we don't brunch every Sunday, but most of the Sundays we do. We like to have a good time and take a break.

 

[Beth 00.30.43]: The brunch mentality, even if you don't go to brunch.

 

[Rob 00.30.45]: Yeah, it's definitely about culture and making things seem fun and, yeah. So

 

[Beth 00.30.53]: So when did you start making this office?

 

[Rob 00.30.56]: Well, when I was at the Medicaid clinic in Washington, DC in ward seven, I kind of really had a fire under my ass thinking I want to do dentistry my way because there are a lot of rules and regulations about what and when you could do and why. And it seemed really prohibitory towards patient health and outcomes. And so I thought, if I do it, I'm going to do it better. And so, I switched to a family practice that also allows me to rent a dental chair out of their office. So pretty much like subletting an apartment, only for a business. And so I did that on Saturdays and I did that for my tenure there at that family practice before accepting a role at Whitman Walker. And so that's when I started opening up Big Gay Smiles and seeing patients. And it was 2021, February of 2021, when I saw my first patient, or maybe it was March. So we're just coming up on our three year anniversary, and we now have our own Brick and Mortar store that is doing quite well. And we're very, very blessed to be supported by such a wonderful community. 

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[Beth 00.32.06]: So you and Tyler have done it together, right?

 

[Rob 00.32.09]: We did it together for the most part. I actually met Tyler when I was doing Big Gay Smiles already in a chair rental space, so I was already seeing patients. Granted, it was like, one or two months in the making, like starting out. So it was very early when I met Tyler, and he was so helpful. And he just from day one just thought that is an amazing mission, that's something I want to be a part of. I mean, right now he's a vice president of a nonprofit. So to have him like, be front desk and, like, deal with patient bookings and finances and stuff, like, he is definitely sacrificing professionally to help me out and I'm very grateful for him. 

 

[00.32.59]: But what had happened was I had a front desk person that I was paying, and she couldn't make it in. And so I didn't want to see patients alone. And so he had offered, probably like three or four weeks of dating, I'll just come in with you, I'll sit at the front desk, you can do what you need to do, and I'll just make sure you aren't alone seeing patients because of liability and professional licensure reasons.

 

[Beth 00.33.23]: Yeah.

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[Rob 00.33.24]: And so I thought, yeah, yeah that works. And so the rest is history. He's been with me everyday since then from at the dental office.

 

[Beth 0.33.31]: How did you guys meet?

 

[Rob 00.33.32]: Tinder.

 

[Beth 00.33.33]: Nice.

 

[Both laugh]

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[Rob 00.33.34]: Yeah. Yep. Yeah, Tinder. 

 

[Beth 00.33.38]: Aw. Okay, so you give 10% of your revenue to HIV/AIDS research. Why did you choose that as what you wanted to give the money to?

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[Rob 00.33.49]: Well, I felt like it needed attention, and I felt like it was a clap back at my heritage of the mentality that, oh, you're going to get HIV and die if you're gay. And like, no I'm not. The queer world, we're survivors. And straight people get HIV all the time. And so it also came from a close personal friend who, I think I shared with you, who was HIV positive and undetectable, and who swam for QUAC. And his story was just so incredible and sadly tragic. But he changed my life for the good and I thought, I need to honor that. I need to make that part of my legacy. And if I do, maybe I don't leave something behind, but I feel like I can. And I hope that this something is able to to do some good in the world.

 

[Beth 00.34.54]: Could you talk about the other HIV/AIDS activism you do? I know you're involved in things like walks.

 

[Rob 00.35.02]: Yeah, so we do. The revenue is our primary means of support because without money, you can't do what needs to get done.

 

[Beth 00.35.12]: Yeah.

 

[Rob 00.35.13]: To conduct the research. That's the most important thing. Advocacy and changing the narrative is also important. We do a lot of advocacy work. We participate in the Whitman Walker Walk to End HIV each year, we donate money. And this past year, we were red ribbon sponsors, meaning we raised and contributed, we were one of the top contributors for them, for HIV research, as well as AIDS United we work a lot with, and we also participate in a lot of tribal and Native American AIDS/HIV fundraisers and support groups.

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[Beth 00.35.55]: What does being an activist mean to you?

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[Rob 00.35.57]: Being active. You gotta walk the talk. You can't just put a sticker on a website or wear a t-shirt. You have to go out and do. You got to roll up your sleeves and do it.

 

[Beth 00.36.09]: Yeah. I agree. What does queer joy look like for you?

 

[Rob 00.36.14]: Queer joy? I think that it's just joy. Being happy. I think that happiness is the same whether you're straight or queer, and it should be able to be achieved by everyone. And I think queer joy in particular is a little bit more difficult for us to achieve that level of joy because of the hurdles and the things that we have to endure to get there. And so I think that it becomes even more delicious when you have it. And when you found it. It just really feels earned and it is just very deep.

 

[Beth 00.36.51]: I really agree with that description. What are some specific issues you think need to be focused on in the context queer activism, maybe that you haven't talked about?

 

[Rob 00.37.01]: I would say all the letters are equally important and the most important letter at any given time in LGBTQ+2IAS is the letter that's being attacked, because an attack on any one of them is an attack on all of them. And a lot of people don't see that. A lot of people don't realize that attack on the trans community is an attack on the gay community. An attack on the two spirit community is an attack on the gay community. An attack on the intersex people is an attack on the gay community. And I think we really need to realize we're all on the same team. We may think differently about politics and about the certain types of philosophies, but we need to be there for each other. We need to show up for each other.

 

[Beth 00.37.45]: Do you think you could give an example of that?

 

[Rob 00.37.48]: Right now, there's a lot of trans legislation, anti-trans legislation, and we need to stand up against it as gay men, as lesbian, as intersex people, as bisexual people, as everyone, everyone who's not trans, who's part of the queer community needs to stand up and defend trans rights.

 

[Beth 00.38.08]: Yeah.

 

[Rob 00.38.09]: Because those people were the first people fighting the loudest and the hardest for us to live the way that we want to live.

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[Beth 00.38.16]: Is there anything else that you feel like sharing that I haven't asked you about? No,

 

[Rob 00.38.22]: No, I think this is pretty, it was very fun. Very flashbacky. It's got me feeling very reflective. I think that we have a lot of good to do in the world, and we're not done yet. And it would be interesting to see, five years from now, ten years from now, how many smiles we built and how many lives were changing.

 

[Upbeat jazzy piano]

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[Music gets quieter]

 

For queer people, going to the doctor can be very unpleasant and sometimes unsafe. Medical professionals may misgender you, make inappropriate comments, have no knowledge of your queer-specific health concerns, and flat out deny you services. So every time you enter a doctor's office, you may feel really anxious. But being at Big Gay Smiles is completely different. It's a medical environment that celebrates and understands queer identity, which I think is quite radical. I guess what I'm saying is, if you're need a dentist, highly recommend. To really get the essence of Big Gay Smiles though, you need to be able to picture the office.

 

[Music fades out]

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[Beth 00.39.41]: Do you think you could describe this office?

 

[Rob 00.39.44]: Gay.

 

[Beth laughs]

 

[Rob 00.39.45]: Big and gay. Loud and proud. We have crystals everywhere to help fight off the gingivitis, ward away. We got a safe space. We have queer literature everywhere. We have a library that patients can take and check out books. We have a lot of amenities that help people that have had experienced dental trauma in the past. TVs on the ceiling, security blankets, weighted blankets. We got sedation services, laughing gas. We have state of the art equipment. We have a machine that can dance and that can cut crowns in a single day and it has multicolored lights, that's how gay we are, this machine is. It is like a discoteca everywhere on every square inch of this of this dental office.

 

[Beth 00.40.37]: That's true, but it's not overwhelming. I feel like that could sound like a sensory overload, but it's actually not.

 

[Rob 00.40.43]: No.

 

[Beth 00.40.44]: It's a relaxing environment as well.

 

[Rob 00.40.45]: Yeah, Whitney Houston, she sings loud, but we just drop the volume on her, so. But yeah, we definitely know how to be fun, but it's still a medical office.

 

[Beth 00.40.46]: Yeah.

 

[Rob 00.40.47]: It's still a dental office. There is a deep level of professionalism we still exhibit while still maintaining a very fun environment.

 

[Beth 00.41.05]: Yeah, I can definitely attest to that. 

 

[Rob 00.41.07]: Well thank you, I really do appreciate that. 

 

[Beth 00.41.10]: Yeah. Alright, well, I guess that's it, unless you have anything else.

 

[Rob 00.41.14]: No, the only other thing I just want everyone to know is I hope that you feel loved, and smile with pride.

 

[Upbeat jazzy piano with electric guitar]

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[Music gets quieter]

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[Beth 00.41.27]: If you're a queer activist and want to share your oral history, go to rainbowdistrictpodcast.com and schedule an interview with me. That's also where you can learn more about queer history and find community resources. Alright, bye for now!

 

[Music ends]