Episode 1: Robert

 

[Beth 0:01]: As a heads up, this episode contains brief mentions of a suicide attempt. If you or someone you know is having thoughts of suicide, please call or text The Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988. There are also mental health resources in the description of this episode.

 

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[Beth 0:20]: Hello everyone. You're listening to the queer oral history podcast based in Washington, DC. Welcome to Rainbow District. 

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[Upbeat jazzy piano with electric guitar]

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[Music gets quieter]

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[Beth]: Today's activist is Robert Rigby Jr. Robert is a fierce advocate for his community. He created and is the president of FCPS Pride, which is a support group for queer students, staff, and families in Fairfax County Public Schools. He also founded what is now the Northern Virginia chapter of a national organization called GLSN. It focuses on ending discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity and expression in K through 12 schools.

 

For my interview with Robert, I met him at his sunny apartment in Arlington, Virginia. He greeted me with a big smile and I felt comfortable right away. He had two brown leather couches and we each took a seat on one. He was wearing what he called his “jungle shirt.” An incredible shirt, long sleeved, lots of colors, covered with plants and animals. A great choice. I had a lovely time talking to Robert and I hope you enjoy it as well.

 

[Music fades out]

 

[Beth 1:43]: October 24th, 2023. So, hello.

 

[Robert]: Hello. 

 

[Beth]: Would you like to introduce yourself?

 

[Robert 1:50]: I'm Robert Rigby. Retired teacher. Substitute teacher. That's what I do for a living now. I am known in this area, I guess, as a Latin teacher or classicist and as an LGBTQ advocate– LGBTQIA+, queer–advocate. Specifically in schools, specifically Fairfax County public schools. You know, there were 35 or 40 years before that.

 

I'm from the Deep South. The deep, deep south, Pensacola, in northern Florida. And the "when" I'm from is also relevant. I was in middle school and high school and nursery school in the 70s, in Florida, which means the last gasp of the Ku Klux Klan and segregated schools. And it means the beginning of the major shift of people who don't like people towards attacks on queer people. It's the heyday of Anita Bryant. The time of the Briggs Initiative in California where they wanted to ban teachers. The assassination of Harvey Milk. So post-Stonewall, but not post-Stonewall.

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Growing up there and then was not the easiest of things, and I chose to flee the Deep South to go to school–an Ivy League school in northern New England–and ended up going to school with Laura Ingraham and Dinesh D’Souza, who are now leading anti-queer Fox News anchors and advocates and stuff. They made it kind of out of the frying pan into the fire. It messed with me. That's where I’m from.

 

[Beth 3:56]: So what brought you to this area specifically?

 

[Robert 3:58] Oh, my family has been in Virginia for 150 years, I guess. Grandparents moved here in the 20s, 1920s. I'd gone to grad school here and had some teaching experience here. So I moved here because family was here and pension was here. I lived in New England for many years, and came here as well. I actually lived most of my adult life here in Arlington, probably most of it in this apartment. So, this is still not home. Home is Pensacola, for what it's worth. 

 

[Beth 4:38]: Do you ever go back there?

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[Robert]: No. No no no no no no. No reason to. No reason to. I mean, we have no family there. I have friends there. My sister and I have thought of, you know, going to a reunion, but from what I can tell from the news, it hasn't changed all that much.

 

Where am I from in terms of college? You know, again, Dartmouth, the "redneck Ivy," when it was first going coed, and it was very much like Fairfax County is now. There was an enormous amount of outside conservative money bent on attacking Native people, people with disabilities, Black people, and queer people in order to, I don't know. Get publicity, spread the word, raise money, elect people. Outside money, mysterious money, Dartmouth in the 80s. Fairfax County, Northern Virginia in 2023. Here we are again. I sound really pessimistic, and I am. It feels like everything that we were past, here we are again. 

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[Beth]: Yeah.

 

[Robert 5:57]: Oh, I really am–I’m not that–I really am more of a happy-go-lucky kind of guy.

 

[Beth 6:03]: I mean, I think both can be true. I relate to that a lot. Do you remember when you first started questioning your sexuality or gender identity or both?

 

[Robert 6:11]: When I was maybe ten, I noticed I had this crush on this boy. I had no idea what was going on. I actually didn't–you know–I knew that I was gay, and attracted to men and boys both socially and spiritually and physically and all of that. And I knew this was wrong because, you know, they told us in church, and all the scouts and school and camp and about the perverts and the green socks and the earrings and everything.

 

But I thought everyone was like that. I thought all men and boys were attracted, you know, again, on all those parameters, to other men and boys, and that we pretended not to be. And I created reasons why. They were mostly centered around, well, I mean, we've got to make more people because, I don't know, we just do. The planet needs taking care of. So we pretend not to be queer so that we can make more people.

 

Around the time I was in ninth or tenth grade in high school, I realized that some other kids really were straight, which was a truly shocking thing. It made me feel really, really lonely. It made me feel really, really lonely, that I was the only one pretending. 

 

[Beth 7:48]: Do you remember when you first voiced it to anyone or learned about other gay people?

 

[Robert 7:53]: Oh, in senior year in college. Senior year in college. 

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[Beth]: Oh, okay. So a while later. 

 

[Robert]: Yeah, yeah. And what happened my senior year in college, which there were, you know, there was again, a wonderful relationship with a wonderful man, but it created so much conflict in me, that– and again with the Laura Ingraham stuff and the vicious attacks at Dartmouth. I had a suicide attempt.

 

Beginning of at least 20 years of pretty vivid bipolar episodes. I mean, there were years, years, in which I couldn't leave the house because of depression. I mean, I could do, like, Robert Rigby's guide, Robert Rigby's guide to psych wards of the East Coast. I mean, life's been rough. And people with that sort of disability should know that what you do and what you get done is what you do and what you get done, and it's valuable. It's not a race, it’s not a contest. 

 

[Beth]: Yeah.

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[Robert]: It’s not pie. I wish sometimes it were pie. And what amplified that was they just started up a student group–or not– I had just gotten involved in–and again, these funded people, this Laura Ingraham, taped us. Secretly taped us. So somewhere out there are some tapes.

 

[Beth 9:33]: Could you say more about that?

 

[Robert 9:35]: I mean, there's a student, gay student support group, queer student support group, and she sent a secret taper in to secretly audiotape and publish some of it, and publish some of it, you know, again, much as Moms for Liberty did recently with the the Student Pride Liberation Project in Fairfax County. They sent someone in to secretly tape them and published what they taped, and have had some very bad outcomes–without going into anybody's personal details–for some young people. And as a complete side note, labeled me as a child trafficker, but they labeled young people as that. It's a generation of–generation in the sense of creation–of fake news stories, or twisted news stories, that intimidate, frighten, and harm queer kids.

 

You know, again, you sense the anger and panic in my voice because this is the junk I went through in the 70's and 80's with Anita Bryant and the Save our Schools people and the groomer and child molester and the beating of people up and all of that in high school and college. Never thought it would come back to Fairfax, Northern Virginia, in the 21st century. And here it is, here it is. I know if today's students are anything like I was, I know what's happening to some of them and some of them it’s permanent damage. I'm upset. I get upset about it.

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[Beth 11:33]: Do you remember when you started finding a community of other gay people? 

 

[Robert]: It was when I came to teaching and–well, it was when I first got an email account and discovered the internet. So, my coming out experience was in Ogunquit, Maine, which is Maine's answer to Provincetown, Mass, when I was staying with my parents and there was a–I discovered gay bars and stuff like, oh, okay.

 

But in terms of community, I created one. I came to Fairfax County. I noticed queer kids were having a hard time. I said something, I got in trouble, and I called someone. I looked up, like, what groups are there for teachers? And the answer was there was GLSN–Gay Lesbian Straight Education Network. So I started a local chapter, and that chapter’s still going. And, yeah, a friend of mine said, you know, Robert, this is really to create community for yourself. And I said in part it is. So that's when I found a community. I created one. 

 

[Beth]: Mhm. 

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[Robert]: And was joined. And was joined. It's taken longer to make change than I expected. What's interesting is that, you know, again, I mentioned a raging 20 years of bipolar episodes, by and large stopped when I came out and found my community.

 

[Beth]: Oh, wow.

 

[Robert]: And my psychiatrist and I go back and forth about this. For years he said, you know, you're doing so much better because of the medications and, you know, the living more healthily. And I said well, a lot of it has to do with coming out and not being involved in reparative therapy. He said, well, I don't know.

 

And we switched positions, where my position is that a lot has to do with how I live my life and medication and he's more like, you know, Robert, being out and not being in with people who want to shame you for being queer has a lot to do with it. So, yeah, chicken and egg or whatever, but not being closeted, not being in reparative therapy means, at least in part, my life is livable, which is a really remarkable thing. 

 

[14:08]: There was a moment. I joined a fundamentalist church and had to come out to them. The pastor wanted me to, you know, have pastoral counseling to become straight. And I was so desperate to be straight, the way I put it is I said, I'd give God an arm if he'd make me straight.

 

He sent me to a Baptist counselor who met with me and after six months said–you may have read this–Robert, I met with you for six months and you've convinced me that God made you the way you are and God loves you the way you are. Let's help you come out to your family. And I don't know how religious and deep I am at this point or, it’s complicated, but that made all the difference. The notion that I'm okay the way I am. I'm meant to be the way I am. 

 

[Beth]: Mhm.

 

[Robert]: It was a real essential realization, which I was unable to achieve the first 35 years.

 

[Beth 15:24]: Yeah, how did that feel when he said that to you?

 

[Robert 15:26]: It was pretty awesome. Scary as dirt, but it made all the difference. Made all the difference. Which is why I speak openly of religion. I don't think queer people need to know that religion is separate from them. I think they need to know if it works for them, that higher powers or god or religion or gods or spirituality, is that they're not good folk, masterpieces of the universe or whatever, despite what religious people say, but because of it. You know, I don't think people have to choose between God or community or their identity or their faith. 

 

So, you know, what does this lead me to? What this leads me to is, you know, healing my 15-year-old self. It's creating schools that I would want to go–that I would've–time travel is so hard in terms of grammar–that I would have wanted to go to. To help make schools like schools I'd want to be in if I were a kid. And that's what I've dedicated my volunteer–some of my volunteer work. Some of it's been with homeless folk and students with disabilities. But my public advocacy has been around making schools better for queer people.

 

That will change. That will change. I'm hoping to pass the local Fairfax schools advocacy to other folks. Because I know you'd mentioned one question will be, what's the most important thing? And the most important thing is safe housing for queer kids. Safe housing for queer kids. There are so, so, so many people unsafe in their homes. So many people who got thrown out of or leave safe shelter and can't find it. And Virginia’s systems are criminally inadequate. And that needs to change.

 

We can press the button and get rant number 257 about the failings of politicians, but no one cares enough about homeless queer kids for it to be politically important. So somehow, I have to find other people to help make it so. 

 

[Beth 18:22]: Do you feel like you are finding other people?

 

[Robert 18:25]: There are. There are people. There are people who've been doing this work for decades, so I need to join with them. In order to do that, I need to leave the previous work behind. I need to let go. And I'm hoping that this fall and this winter, I can let go of FCPS Pride and the Fairfax schools work. Part of what’s made it hard to let go is trying to find the perfect person, and we're like, no, people gonna do what people gonna do. I think I just need to kind of go off into the sunset, you know, go on to the next work, onto the next.

 

[Beth 19:10]: Can you talk a bit more about what that group is, how you started it, and what your role is?

 

[Robert 19:16]: FCPS Pride? We actually started in response to the biggest school’s fight around queer people in Fairfax schools, which was May 7th, 2015, when they added trans folks to their non-discrimination policy. And there was violence. There was screaming, there was ugliness. There were police, there were hate groups. There was much media. And I remember the Washington Post reporter said, what does the LGBTQ employees group for Fairfax have to say about that? And I thought, huh, there isn't one. So we started one. 

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Again, a group of queer and allied staff. The county helped us set it up and do the paperwork and stuff. And we found very quickly that we were joined by queer family members, parents, guardians, caretakers, and parents, guardians, caretakers of queer kids. So that's who we are, we're queer and allied employees. Queer people raise kids in our schools and people raise queer kids in our schools.

 

We've ebbed and flowed, as people’s–because we're very small–as people's capacity has come and gone. Getting word out it's the hardest thing. Visibility is probably the biggest thing we do. Tabling at events, doing events where kids and staff–you would not believe at new teacher week, when the folks go like, there are rainbows here? Can you say that here? I'm not sure if I can fly this rainbow in my class. This is Virginia. Because people have always been afraid, and people are more afraid now. And just by being there, just by being out, we help a little bit, but we also fuss a lot.

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[Beth 21:40]: What do you mean? 

 

[Robert]: We advocate within the system. We advocate publicly. The public advocacy is what people see, and it's the sexy thing, everyone wants to talk to the school board. It's not the most important thing you do. Who you talk to behind the scenes, who you talk to in the system–again, I myself have become very frustrated because we've gone backwards.

 

And that's not the fault of the system. It's not the fault of the leadership. It's the fault of the world. It's the fault of the billions of dollars invested in weaponizing the existence of vulnerable folk, queer people, Black people, disabled people, immigrants, Muslims, Jews. And we're part of that. We're a major part of that. In theory, you can comment on that. Practically, it means dead children. That's the harsh truth. And that has to end. 

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People get irritated with me when I get angry and say what I think, and call down as I see the need to call down. People who are allies and trying to help– you’re not appreciating the cis-het people enough for all the help they give. And it’s the staying up at night reading about another kid that's died. Or, you know, another family that's been torn apart. People have moved or fled Virginia because it's the place that it is.

 

And I guess it pales in comparison to what's going on in other parts of the world, except it doesn't for those kids. It doesn't for those families. And I know that there are Jewish and Muslim and Palestinian and Israeli queer kids in this country who are now doubly and triply, I don't know. I wake up in the middle of the night and cry. So when I go to meetings, I tell people why it’s so darn important. Because it is.

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[Beth 24:15]: It is.

 

[Robert]: It is. I've been told I can't change all the world all at once, but I've discovered is, at least for now, the world is changing for the worse. And in many ways don't know what to do about that. I don't know what to do about that. Other than rage. Other than rage. I talk at church a lot about this. What do you do with the rage? What do you do with the rage? And I guess the answer is you listen. You step back and listen. And you keep talking, and you support, and you support.

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For years, back between, like, 2002 and 2014 or 15, when there was not much political chance of making any progress, what I and the folks who worked with me did were events for youth–conferences and dances. Always a dance. There should always be a dance. Or a game night, or whatever. And what it meant was a chance for community, a chance to exist, a chance to see a world with some hope in it. Not that queer kids are all that sad and desperate, but for folks who didn't, to kind of broaden the wealth.

 

And I think for my own peace of mind, to kind of have what impact I can in these hard times, I need to gather the folk to go back to doing that work. Many other people picked it up, which is nice. There are queer proms, there are queer libraries, there are people forming queer centers, which is nice. So I don't feel the need to do it.

 

[Beth 26:15]: Are there any of those events that are some of your favorites that stick out to you? 

 

[Robert 26:21]: Well, I mean, the dances, of course, that's just me. I'm a dancing fool. For years we did one called Passing the Torch, which was varied between dances and lecture nights and dinners and stuff. But the theme was for one graduating group of youth leaders in high school, as they went off to what they were doing next, to find and identify a mentor. And you literally, ceremonially, passed the torch on to the next generation. So we had this dorky ceremony with candles and speeches and it was it was completely kitsch, but it was beautiful.

 

That was a nice theme. And it was flexible. You know, whatever the youth who organized it wanted to do it, whether it be a prom or a fancy dinner, or whatever. We stopped doing it when other folks started doing a more formal, kind of fancier prom, I guess. I think we had 17 or 18 of them. That was a fun theme. 

 

I mean, if it involved dancing, I was happy. I know not everybody likes dancing. What I mean by “dance,” of course, is simply something with rhythm and beat. Disability is not a barrier to dancing. But not everybody likes dancing. So there are other things that we did. But for me it was the dancing. For me it was the dancing. Again, the theme songs to my life are Dancing Queen and Girls Just Wanna Have Fun.

 

[Beth 28:20]: [laughing] I love that. 

 

[Robert 28:21]: I remember when it came out I got to meet Cindy Lauper.

 

[Beth]: Oh, wow.

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[Robert]: At a PFLAG event.  She came to speak at PFLAG.

 

[Beth]: That's awesome. 

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[Robert]: Yeah, it was pretty awesome.

 

[Beth 28:33]: Do you feel like queer joy is a form of activism itself?

 

[Robert 28:37]: Oh my, yes. Oh my. I've gotten away from it. [laughing] I've gotten into queer anger. Queer rage.

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[Beth 28:43]: [laughing] I have a lot of queer anger as well.

 

[Robert 28:46]: But yes, people remind me that the joy is there and the joy needs to be there. The joy is in walking dogs with your friends and family. That’s the most joyful thing, I've learned. Dog walking with people who matter to you. Yeah. Coffee houses. Sitting around. 

 

[Beth]: I love sitting. [laughs]

 

[Robert]: Sitting around. I'm not much for a happy hour nowadays. But, you know, recovery meetings then, that can be a part of joy. Anything queer people do together, where they love one another, is queer joy. And it's golden joy, because it's hard fought. It's hard won. It's vulnerable, so it's gold.

 

[Beth 29:42]: So, what does being an activist mean to you?

 

[Robert 29:45]: Well, you know, again, I got into it to make the world better for that 15 year old me.

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[Beth]: Yeah.

 

[Robert]: Well, it means two things. It means accomplishing something worth doing, and surviving accomplishing something worth doing. And that's hard to understand. But when you accomplish something worth doing, and survive it, you need to kind of offer that up to the people who didn't survive. So winning the battle, pushing the envelope, holding the dyke, whatever it is you do and accomplish with your community and your folks and everyone working together, when it's done, I feel crushed. For the folks who aren't there.

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And what activism means to me is getting passed that. And going back again to work with the team and the community to accomplish something, for the people who didn't survive. The other thing I did, my hobby, is analyzing ancient texts, and trying to push the envelope on progressive curriculum in secondary Latin and Greek classrooms.

 

[Beth 31:16]: You were a special education teacher for 22 years. Do you want to talk about why you stopped?

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[Robert 31:21]: Well, I mean, it was time to retire. 

 

[Beth]: Oh, okay.

 

[Robert]: Financially, it made the most sense. I stopped early, I left school early, during the year because the public grotesquery in Fairfax County about queer people being groomers and pedophiles had dribbled down into my classroom, and kids were talking about pedophiles and groomers and queer people in my room, in my classroom, with me there. And with queer kids there. Couldn't stand it, couldn't do it, couldn't go to work. You know, what I would have done if I'd had to work? I don't know. I probably would have quit. 

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Again, I had the enormous privilege of having reached a kind of maturity on pensions, so I was able to go when I needed to go, but I just couldn't be there anymore. It was horrifying. It was emotionally violent. It was kind of destructive to my soul. And the school tried to work on it. They just couldn't work on it quickly enough.

 

And it wasn't their fault that it was there. It was the fault of the people who, for whatever reason, hate and amplify hate and verbal and emotional violence towards queer people. So it got to me and I had to go. Kids can't go, kids can't go, unless their families go. What do they do? None of the solutions there are good. Some of them are truly, truly dreadful. Some of them are existential.

 

That has to stop. And this is where the rage comes. Because some people do it because it aggrandizes themself. Some people do it because they get paid to. And I think the people being paid to do it are, quite frankly, looking to control our government. Or–you know–I don't know. God knows what they're trying to accomplish. They're doing it by destroying the lives of queer kids. And that's criminal. It's–I hate to use the word evil. It's very bad. It's not nice. It’s truly mean. It’s un-Christian. 

 

[Beth 34:22]: So, you mentioned that you go to church?

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[Robert 34:26]: I do. I guess if I had to identify as anything, it'd be Quaker. But I don't, I actually go to a United Methodist Church. Very queer friendly, very welcoming. And I don't know if you know about the UMC (United Methodists) are having a schism, a schism, a split, where the church has decided that queer people are more acceptable than they used to be. In marriages and priests and mission and membership and various parameters. I don't know all the details.

 

But what's happened is that people who don't like that are having the option to go, to leave. And what happened in Virginia is about a 10th, maybe 15, maybe eight, 15% of the UMC congregations are leaving the domination. And that's what's going on in the UMC. It's what happened with the Episcopalians a few years back. And again, it's very, very particular to very particular sects in–S-E-C-T-S– in Christianity and most people who aren't in that are like, oh, oh, people are having a fight. 

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To me, in the long run, it's a good sign. It means people of goodwill are not saying let’s compromise with the haters to keep them here. They're saying if they want to go their own way, let them go. Because what happens over centuries is people come back. Have you heard of the Unitarian Universalists? 

 

[Beth]: No.

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[Robert]: They’re a very, extraordinarily progressive religious society that isn't necessarily even Christian anymore. Their roots are in the New England church. It's in kind of Calvinistic fundamentalism. Institutions change. People change. There is hope in the world. Maybe not in my lifetime.

 

This is what people would call this cognitive dissonance. I feel bitter and angry and enraged and hopeless. But on the other hand, hardworking and hopeful and nose to the grindstone. I've got a big head. I can hold all these ideas. it’s just hard to hold them at the same time. I guess that's my message to folks: there's both bitterness and there's hope…That's really trite.

 

[Beth 37:25]: No, I really connect to that sentiment.

 

[Robert 37:27]: I know, I mean, it's unavoidable. It's unavoidable. It's truth.

 

[Beth 37:33]: So what is next for you, now that you're not teaching?

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[Robert 37:40]: Very clearly, over the next year or so, unwinding myself from my entanglement in advocacy here in Northern Virginia, and looking at what to do with my own personal life. And where and how to take up the mission, which is housing for queer youth, and other youth who have no place to live, for whom home is not a home. Don't know. Answering that,  I don't have the answer to that question. The next task is to find out.

 

What I have discovered is that everything I had planned for myself is not what I've ended up doing. And things have ended up all right. So I’ve been either fortunate or watched over so far. And you know, what can you do? The Rolling Stones said, "You can’t always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find you get what you need." Yep.

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[Beth 38:59]: So, is there anything else that you want to say that you feel like I didn't ask about, or is just on your mind, connected to queer activism?

 

[Robert 39:07]: Yeah. Adult advocacy needs not to co-opt youth advocacy to its own needs, but instead to fund and support and back queer youth advocacy, even if we old folk don't like it. Because what youth have to say for themselves matters much, much more than what they can say to help what we think they should say for themselves. My generation, your generation, our task is to support and fund and back what youth have to say. That’s my message.

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[Beth 39:59]: Do you feel like that's not happening?

 

[Robert 40:02]: It's hard to do. Hard to do.

 

[Beth 40:05]: Do you think you could give an example of what that would look like?

 

[Robert 40:07]:Yeah. Pride Liberation Project, local queer youth group, had had a run in with a school board member. And all we old folk said, well, you know, being circumspect and working behind the scenes and being careful is what we should do. And we gave that advice. But with the advice we said it's your decision, do what you need to do, and we're there with you. And so they did make their decision, which was to go public and stuff, and we stood behind them.

 

Now, was it the right thing to do? I don't know. I mean, someone ask Zhou Enla what were the results of the French Revolution? The answer was, it's too soon to tell. We don't know. But I think so far it appears to be the right decision. But it was their decision. About things that had happened to them. It was hard to do that. There are consequences. So what? I've had, I don't know, my generation's had a lot to say. It's time for the younger folks to have what they have to say, and for us to either back them or get out of the way. [laughing] You would not believe how hard that is to do.

 

[Beth 41:46]: Do you think that there's anything that youth should do to support older generations?

 

[Robert 41:52]: Yeah, look out for us in terms of our housing. I worry greatly about my generation having to go back in the closet or make compromises or being horribly impoverished because of homophobia and transphobia and queer-phobia. Yeah, queer youth, when they're able, need to look out for their elders who just don't have the supports that cis-het people, We need to give one another--we need to be family. Oh yeah, old people desperately need that. As a group, as a class. We need to be family and we need to support one another, intergenerationally. And yes, young people need to advocate for housing for older people.

 

[Beth 42:52]: Yeah. So when you think about your time here in Virginia, are there any memories that just stick out to you that you feel like sharing? Like, any meaningful relationships or some cool experience you had?

 

[Robert 43:05]: Well, I mean, you know, the relationships I’m in now. I think the thing that really stands out for me was when, again, the Pride Liberation Project appeared and started advocating, and I'd never heard of them. Like, I had nothing to do with this. I didn't organize this. These are youth seeing the need– queer youth, youth of color, youth not necessarily out with the support, the level of bravery.

 

And when they started doing it, I disagreed with everything they did and the way they did it. And then I thought about it and I thought, gee, I need to stop and have a little more patience and look a little more broadly. And that was magical. That was magical. Both to see them, and to let myself see the queer joy in that youth advocacy. 

 

[Beth 44:09]: Yeah, queer joy is powerful.  

 

[Robert 44:11]: It really is. Really, thank you. Thank you for reminding me of that. There's been lots in life... 

 

[Beth]: Yeah.

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[Robert]: What's real different for me, and this didn't happen until, like, my mid 50s or early 50s, I like myself. I don't like everything I do, I don't like myself every moment. But by and large–and I have lots of doubts, you've seen them. But by and large, I like who I am, I like myself. Which means that, what in my life would I change? Which is real different. I think most people, a lot of queer people, don't go through life not liking themselves. I don't know what I did to reach that, but somewhere, maybe I stopped drinking, I don't know. But I didn't do that on purpose, either. Which one’s the chicken, which one's the egg? But somewhere, I guess eight, seven, eight years ago, I just liked myself. And that's a form of queer joy, too.

 

[Beth 45:16]: Yeah, I mean, that's a powerful sentiment because queer people, and marginalized people, are taught to hate themselves. There's so much internalized homophobia that you don't even realize is there until you actually figure out that you're not the problem, the world is a problem–like, how they see you. 

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[Robert 45:34]: And this is true also for many people of color, or for many immigrants, and certainly people with disabilities are taught to see themselves as less than. 

 

Maybe this is it: maybe I was taught to see myself as less than, and at this point in life, I see it is as not a math problem. The math and the equality and the less than and the greater than really have nothing to do with my existence and who I am and how I value myself. It’s just– when people talk about equality, you’re like, humanity. Humanity. 

 

[Jazzy upbeat piano]

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[Music gets quieter]

 

[Beth 46:27]: For about 20 years, Robert tried to become straight. As he mentioned, he went to reparative therapy, also known as conversion therapy, a treatment designed to change a person's sexual orientation or gender identity. For Robert, this included talk therapy, groups, and electroconvulsive–or shock–therapy. This treatment is ineffective and all major medical associations oppose it, yet only 22 states have laws that completely ban it for minors.

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In Robert's words, the time for action is NOW. The time for our allies is NOW. Appeasement has not and will not work. Queer folk must join with groups often marginalized, lest our historical window of freedom in this experiment in democracy close forever. 

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I loved every minute of my interview with Robert, but I think the very end was my favorite part.

 

[Music fades out] 

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[Beth 47:27]: All right, well, I mean, unless you have anything else to add, I think that this will conclude–

 

[Robert]: Uh–

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[Beth]: Do you have one thing?

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[Robert]: I do.

 

[Beth]: Please, go ahead! 

 

[Robert]: I think the audio audience should know, you know, that I'm wearing a fabulous, slim fit, jungle, long sleeve, cotton shirt with leaves, and orange flowers, and red flowers, and a blue background. And some–there may be a tiger or two in here.

 

[Beth]: Yeah!

 

[Robert]: And it it's just fabulous. 

 

[Beth 48:00]: It really is. Thank you so much for articulating that because that is essential for this image. 

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[Music starts in background: upbeat jazzy piano with electric guitar]

 

[Beth]: If you're a queer activist and want to share your oral history, go to rainbowdistrictpodcast.com, or click on the link in the description and schedule an interview with me. That's also where you'll find the transcript for this episode, and further information about some of the topics covered. Alright, bye for now.

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[Music ends]